[OpenWrt-Devel] [RFC] stop accepting 4/32M board patches
bobafetthotmail at gmail.com
Thu Dec 20 17:26:05 EST 2018
On 20/12/18 20:46, James Feeney wrote:
> On 12/20/18 8:54 AM, Alberto Bursi wrote:
>> So no, the 4/32 warning should stay and remain loud and clear so newbies won't be frustrated by low end devices.
> There also seems to be a presumption that a "newbie" is, or should be, running luci. I believe that that is also an inappropriate assumption.
> Using some web interface is not necessarily any easier than using a command line interface. Just because Apple or Microsoft teach people to use a Graphical User Interface does not mean that LEDE/OpenWRT should be doing the same thing.
GUIs (both physical and digital) have proven time and again to be easier
to learn as they are self-explanatory (if done well, anyway) by
providing descriptions, names, showing all you can do right away, and
providing guided wizards for more complex procedures, and even when they
are not done well they are usually safe enough so you can try messing
around to learn them.
Also, very important for modern projects: a decent GUI can be operated
with a touch-screen device. Full blown commandline eeeeh, it's a bit
painful to use on mobile.
Commandline is not self-explanatory in the slightest (also usually not
as "safe" as a GUI that usually has checks on input and such) and pretty
much doing anything does require reading documentation for a while which
can be boring and also has to exist and be maintained.
An example: I've seen posts on Phoronix forum of some Linux users that
know how to use command line. Yet they dislike OpenWrt because here we
have the UCI system for configuration instead of leaving the standard
config files you can find in Linux distros. To use OpenWrt over SSH they
would need to learn again all the ins and outs for proper configuration
through UCI and they don't like that, so they just use Debian or Arch
instead (they have decent ARM device support) as they know already how
to use them.
We need to keep in mind that the main objective of end users is getting
a job done, many come to OpenWrt because they need to run OpenVPN or
Wireguard, have a decent firewall or run some other service on a device
they can actually trust, the faster they can do that, the better.
They will have one or two devices at most, following the stable release
channel (i.e. updating them once every 6 months or whatever) and these
devices will be deployed to provide some kind of service, they aren't
constantly tinkered with, the configuration is often set once and not
touched again for years. Any complex procedure or command will be
forgotten by the time they need to change it again.
> "Newbie" is not the same thing as "Dumbed-Down". Now, if there is no text-terminal-based configuration "helper" for LEDE/OpenWRT, again, that is a distinct issue to discuss here.
Luci allows to do pretty much the same things you can do with command
line for what it actually supports, I don't think it is dumbed down.
Sure many packages don't have a luci interface at all, but as-is it
removes a lot of the burden of dealing with the basic operation of an
OpenWrt device, so you can just read one page about the configuration
for your specific additional package and copy-paste in terminal window
without fully understanding the actual commands, instead of having to
read and understand 6+ pages about basic operation which can be done in
a minute flat, no reading required, with Luci.
A "terminal-based "helper"" would be an awesome addition, as it would
mostly provide the same benefits of a GUI I list above, without the
footprint of an actual GUI (as long as it is shellscript-based), while
it could also become dumbed down, just as a GUI can. (kinda less cool
for mobile device usage though, but still much better than normal
But there is no such thing at the moment. The two possible choices are
Luci GUI or commandline access. And as I said commandline with no
"helper" is not really user-friendly, which leads to the "newbies will
likely need Luci" assumption you find in the wiki and in the forum.
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